Least, Sufficient Force: Libertarian Theory of Defense

reddawnwolverinesIn The Ethics of Liberty Murray Rothbard made the remark that punishment theory has been scarcely treated by libertarians. The very same thing could be said for the theory of defense. If there has been little attempt by libertarians to determine what sanctions may be taken against an invader of property of another, there have been just as few attempts to determine what means may be used to thwart such an invader.

Rothbard himself devoted a chapter of The Ethics of Liberty to each of these two questions, but then spent a number of paragraphs in the chapter on defense discussing punishment instead, and so himself treated the latter question even more briefly than the former. This brief treatment of defense in The Ethics of Liberty is inspirational, but underdeveloped and insufficient.

In his treatment of defense Rothbard first poses a question of how extensive one’s right to defense of person and property is. He then proposes a basic answer: “Up to the point at which he begins to infringe on the property rights of someone else.” This can scarcely be argued with, for it is simply the principle of non-aggression restated. To infringe upon the property rights of another is indeed impermissible in any circumstances.

Rothbard’s elementary answer is useful in that it settles the matter of how much force may, in the conduct of defense, be brought to bear against people other than the aggressor. The answer is none at all. The non-aggression principle does not permit for any amount of “collateral damage” against third parties. Any act of intimidation, fraud or violence against people other than the aggressor carried out under the veneer of repelling aggression is in fact an act of aggression in its own right, and does not fall under defense.

There is one matter Rotbard’s basic answer does not resolve, however. That is, the question of how much force may in the conduct of defense be brought to bear against the aggressor himself? If there is a right to self-defense — and Rothbard showed that for libertarians there has to be — then there can only be one answer. Against the aggressor, the aggressed-upon may use up to exactly the amount of force that is necessary to thwart the aggression.

As Rothbard notes, if an individual has an absolute right to his justly-held property then he has an absolute right to keep that property. Accepting legitimacy of property is diametrically opposite to the position of radical pacifists who deny the legitimacy of defensive violence, usually on humanitarian grounds. It is perfectly legitimate to consider the existence of defensive violence and the physical harm wrought upon the aggressor by their chosen victim as a tragedy, one that is just as great as the violence by the aggressor. However, that is a matter of personal taste and can not take precedence over that which is objectively true.

The truth that is not subject to opinion is that as far as an innocent victim is concerned neither of these ‘tragedies’ need to occur. It is in fact the criminal alone who by initiating aggression makes certain that either one, or the other ‘tragedy’ will take place. And it is the criminal who forces a victim that has the means for a successful defense using violence (by no means are all victims of crime this fortunate) into position of having to decide which of the two possible tragic outcomes shall occur.

What is more, by placing the victim in front of such a choice the aggressor authorizes the victim to take whatever violent measures against him are necessary to interrupt his assault. The criminal effectively makes a demand upon the victim — that the victim can not escape — to either relinquish property in itself and accept harm to itself, or to employ defensive violence against the aggressor that will enable it to keep possession of its property. Since the aggressor has no right whatsoever to demand the former, he may not object when the victim chooses the latter option instead. Because in this way the attacker effectively extorts the violence against himself from his target, he therefore has no grounds to object against it.

Naturally the level of violence employed by the target of the aggressor, or his agents, may not be excessive. The aggressed-upon may use only as much violence as is absolutely necessary to keep his property. Any violence beyond that may not be deemed as having been extorted by the aggressor. Such violence against the initial aggressor — in excess of what is necessary for a successful defense — may be either legitimate (retributive), or illegitimate (aggressive), but determining which is a question for the theory of punishment to resolve, and not a matter of self-defense proper.

It is important to understand that the right to self-defense and the right to retribution are distinct from one another. They are governed by different principles. What magnitude of force is permitted in defense is governed by the principle of the least, sufficient force. How extensive an application of force is appropriate in punishment is determined by the principle of proportionality. There is no way in which the principle of proportionality affects the right to self-defense. Attempting to force upon self-defense the ill-fitting straitjacket of proportionality would mean erecting arbitrary constraints to defense that are ultimately just as indefensible as the across-the-board objections to self-defense by radical pacifists.

To illustrate this point let us first conceive of a crime that has irreparable consequences for the victim, but for which the proper punishment falls short of the death penalty. Let us imagine a moderately severe physical assault that results in life-long chronic pain fits these criteria. Now let us say that John attacks Joe unprovoked, determined not to stop until he inflicts on the latter a battering of this sort. Finally let us say that Joe is in a possession of a crystal ball and therefore knows, firstly that he may not withstand the ferocity of John’s attack other than by quickly pulling a pistol and shooting him in the chest which is easily fatal, and secondly that failing to do that will end in some lasting physical damage for him, but will not be life-threatening.

In such a case is it within Joe’s rights to defend himself in the only way that will prevent him from suffering irreparable damage to his body? Those who uphold property rights must see that it is. Since Joe has a right to his body, he has a right to keep his body intact. He may not be compelled to give up the function of his body for the sake of someone else, least of all someone who attacks him unjustifiably.

Those who would impose the notion on proportionality on defense, however, must disagree. Since the punishment for an assault of this severity would not be to end the aggressor’s life, the victim must therefore likewise stop short of using lethal force in the course of defense. In other words any proponents of proportion in defense would impose on Joe an arbitrary limit to acceptable means of defense that would preclude him from defending himself successfully. They would demand of Joe to accept aggression against himself and deny he has an absolute right to his body. They would assert Joe owns his body only in as much as he is able to restrain John without hurriedly shooting him — which he is not.

Thus the proponent of proportionality in defense stands on no less shaky grounds than does the pacifist. Only where the pacifist would deny the right to self-defense across the board, the proportionalists would deny such a right only in some cases, usually where the aggressor refrains from the most horrible kind of assault, but is sufficiently ferocious and powerful in comparison to its victim, so that the latter is relatively unable to thwart the aggressor except with the most extreme means available.

It is easy to see where the proportionalist goes wrong. It is one thing to see the greater physical damage against the aggressor, as a greater tragedy, than what would have been lesser damage inflicted upon the victim. This, however, is a matter of taste and may not take precedence before that which is objectively true — that no one may compel innocent victims of crime to relinquishing their right not to be harmed by aggression. As far as the victim is concerned neither the ‘lesser tragedy’ of injury suffered by the victim, nor the ‘greater tragedy’ of the death of the attacker need to occur. It is only the attacker who creates the situation that either of them must, and entrusts the victim with the means of successful defense to decide which one shall it be.

Imagine a woman of slight build whose rape at the hands of a powerfully-built man is imminent, unless she manages to use kill-o-zap — a weapon whose every shot is always lethal — that is within her arms’ reach against the attacker. In this scenario, insistence that the aggressed-upon woman limits her attempts at defending herself to only such measures which are somehow “proportional” would bar her from using the 100% lethal weapon, and demand of her to to face the attacker barehanded, rather than end his life. In other words it would demand of her to subject herself to a perfectly preventable atrocity for the sake of the well-being of the aggressing party. It would be tantamount to denying she has an absolute right to never be raped.

Just as it absurd to assert a man has a right to his property, but not to defend it, it is absurd to assert the aggressed-upon individual has a right to defend it, but only with ineffective means that will not actually enable him to recoup his losses or avoid incurring them. If a man has a right to defend himself at the expense of the well-being of the aggressor, this must mean a right to defend himself successfully! If lesser force is insufficient for effective defense, the use of the next greater force against the aggressor can not be denied to the defender.

In the chapter of The Ethics of Liberty dealing with self-defense Rothbard introduces the concept of proportionality, but it is clear that in this section of the chapter he is actually, somewhat confusingly, talking about punishment, not defense. In paragraphs fourteen through sixteen he does not use the word defense once, instead invoking punishment three times, once in the context of “the proportionality theory of punishment”.

Rothbard uses an example of a storekeeper who elects to shoot a bubblegum thief to illustrate the need for the punishment to “fit the crime”. That is a worthwhile principle where retribution is concerned, but means Rothbard omits to treat his example in the context of defense. In such a context Rothbard’s storekeeper would likely be equally out of bounds to shoot the bubblegum thief, but that is because it is extremely unlikely a shoplifter interested in a piece of bubble gum could be thwarted only if shot with a firearm.

A ‘lad’ who snatched a bubble gum would possibly give it up just if the storekeeper raised his finger, or pulled his ear. Consequentially to elect to shoot him instead would clearly be in excess of the least, sufficient force needed for the storekeeper to keep possession of his bubble gum. In any case a bubble gum is vehemently replaceable so there is no urgency to defense. The storekeeper has fair chances of being fully reimbursed for the bubble gum even should he let the thief escape the scene — possibly all he needs to do, for it to be so, is go and speak with the lad’s parents.

This does not mean that shooting the aggressor exceeds what may be justified by the necessity of defense in every instance of petty theft imaginable. Imagine a diabetic who needs to take regular insulin shots lest he dies of hyperglycemia. Now let us say he has been stranded somewhere without a reliable source of insulin, and a thief is unknowingly taking away with his last remaining supply. In this situation there is great urgency to defense. The aggressed-upon must thwart the aggressor momentarily or there may be severe consequences for him. Here the diabetic is within his rights to shoot the escaping thief if there is no other way for the sick man to stop the thief otherwise, eg if the thief is a faster runner, or will not heed calls to let go of the stolen property.

Both the principle of proportionality and the principle of the least, sufficient force place an upper limit on force that may be brought to bear against an aggressor. Either of these limitations may be greater than the other. There could be a criminal who was guilty of a series of heinous crimes, but who after a period on the run turned himself in of his own accord. Such a criminal could be punished severely, but no rough treatment of him could be justified by the right to defense as he was being taken into custody. On the other hand there could be a stubborn squatter who was relatively unobtrusive, but was nonetheless unwanted. The nature of his invasion of property could be very mild and so no great punishment could be demanded for him once he has been evicted. He could, however, be evicted in a seemingly harsh manner, if he through his own stubbornness made it impossible to defend against his presence with milder methods.

This is not trivial. A victim of crime could in the course of defense employ force that was in excess of what was required for a successful defense and not face legal trouble, if this force nonetheless did not exceed the level of force permitted by the right to retribution. However, this is only the case for the victim, but not for any of its agents acting on its behalf only in matters of defense. Also, such excess of force used in the course of defense will be subtracted from the force the victim may bring to bear against the aggressor in retribution for infringement of rights. An opposite scenario where a defense agent could employ force against the aggressor which was greater than the level of force prescribed by courts as appropriate punishment for the aggressor is likewise possible.

A case in point is the soldier of an occupation. The term for occupation carries eery, menacing connotations to it in many languages. Most of all in the languages of nations that have experienced it. Even the Americans who never did, but have occupied other nations, prefer to consume popular culture that condemns the occupier and strongly sides with the resistance against it, rather than the other way around. What is more the American president George W. Bush who personally planned and ordered the long and bloody occupation of Iraq (2003-2011) admitted he “wouldn’t be happy” if he himself were occupied.

We understand intuitively, that in the context of an occupation the occupier is the aggressor and that violent resistance to occupation is legitimate as well as commendable. There may be disagreement among human observes whether a particular real-life situation constitutes a foreign military occupation, but we are generally one in holding that if it does, then the occupied, in their bid to liberate themselves, have the right to take aim against any and all of the occupiers.

When watching a TV episode, of say Star Trek, featuring the French resistance ambushing a German patrol we do not ask ourselves whether the French made certain every one of the ambushed German soldiers had done something to warrant being killed as punishment — no, we understand intuitively, the French resistance are not acting to enact punishment on the German soldiers, but to defend their country from their presence. We should not be so naive as to believe even a comparatively mild occupation does not entail a series of grave violations against property, however, it is the case no matter what the sins of the occupation, an individual occupying soldier may be relatively innocent.

Seeing that for libertarians there is no such crime as “belonging to a criminal organization” the most some occupying soldiers, for example the recently-arrived replacements, may be guilty of is trespassing. Yet it is understood even such recently-arrived occupying troops are liable to be legitimately shot by the resistance. How is this just?

It is legitimate for the resistance to do so, because it is legitimate for the property owners whose land the occupiers disturb to demand the intruders evacuate at once. The former can be placed under no obligation to suffer the unwanted presence of the latter and to see their rights trampled by the invaders. Support for the resistance in this instance does not mean we believe occupying soldiers deserve to die as punishment for their trespassing, but merely that in such a scenario the property owners have the right to engage them with lethal force.

In a regular case of trespassing the defense agents of the property owner would be quite out of bounds to shoot a trespasser or plant explosive devices against him, because in all likelihood that would be well in excess of the force needed to be rid of the invader. In many cases all that would be needed would be to warn the trespassers they were on private property and they would walk away by themselves.

When the trespassers are instead the armed military personnel of a foreign state, however, such presumptions no longer apply. It is instead in all likelihood the case such intruders are so persistent and so able to withstand less lethal attempts at their removal to warrant ambushing them with great firepower. It is the occupying soldiers who by making themselves impervious to warnings, and to the use of less extreme means of defense while engaging in aggression, authorize the defenders to use ever greater force against them.

So it is the persistence of the aggressors, their determination to continue in their aggression and their ability to withstand less forceful attempts at bringing their violation of rights to an end, that warrants the use of greater force against them — not the nature of their transgression as such. Thus to defend themselves the aggressed-upon may not use force that is in excess of the least force that is still sufficient for a successful defense, but are justified in using any other amount. This principle, governing the use of force in defense against the aggressor, may be deemed the principle of the least, sufficient force.

~ Marko

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7 thoughts on “Least, Sufficient Force: Libertarian Theory of Defense

  1. claytonkb 01/07/2013 at 16:50 Reply

    Great post. Some thoughts.

    Rothbard’s theory of punishment (which Block has termed “two teeth for a tooth”) is deficient on several points, most notably in that it postulates without justification that victim obtains the right to violate the aggressor’s right to precisely the same degree that aggressor originally violated the victim’s rights. Why should this be so? There is nothing within the axiom of action or within the principles of non-aggression, homesteading and exchange that can be used to justify it. The only justification that can be given is symmetry; given that the victim wants vengeance, the only symmetrical vengeance one can choose is that the victim obtains the right to violate the aggressor’s rights to precisely the same extent the victim’s had been previously violated.

    Another deficiency that arises immediately from this is the matter of depravity. Depraved individuals and depraved acts are odious in a larger sense than simply the violation of the victim’s rights. This doesn’t confer the right on anyone else to add more punishment on the aggressor (contrary to the logic of the State-punishment complex), but it does explain why customary law societies have generally assigned financial penalties to all torts, whether “criminal” or “civil”. In other words, the act of rape is depraved, thus, it is undesirable in the wider social context that we should say “the victim has gained the right to rape the aggressor back.” Rothbard’s idea is that the aggressor would generally “buy his way out” of this, and the price at which this clears would set the level of the fine. But the point remains that if the victim will not bargain, then the retaliatory act is his right to complete, on this theory.

    The least depraved retaliations I can imagine are financial penalty or death. Even confinement in prison is, at root, a depraved act, which is evidenced in the rampant prisoner-on-prisoner crimes that occur, without any recourse, often with the apathetic knowledge of the guards. Financial penalties and death still entail a degree of depravity (think of the schadenfreude of the guard who gets off on the psychological terror of the death-row inmate being walked to the execution chamber, for example, or of the repo man who power-trips on seizing property), but I cannot think of any other forms of retaliation that entail any narrower window for the expression of depravity.

    A clear distinction between self-defense and payment-for-settlement (award) is that the former is an “operational” matter while the latter is a “contemplative” matter. In part, I think this distinction goes to explain why people have been loath to permit acts of depravity as retaliation for depraved acts of aggression: a depraved act committed in cold blood is that much more depraved than one committed under the heat of passion. This is, of course, no justification, excuse or even mitigation for the original depraved act, it merely goes to say that “cutting someone back” is actually -not- an apples-for-apples exchange.

    I think this is where we actually -need- an “extra-legal” environment to set precedents for the legal context. Consider the case of rape. Some people will be willing to settle for some payment price. Others will not. Those who will not settle prefer extra-legal resolution of the matter. They are willing to take on the legal consequences of, for example, hiring a hitman to kill the rapist. The dead rapist’s family may sue the rape-victim for murder. Regardless of how it turns out, those who make this choice are actually giving the rest of us valuable information regarding the price at which a rape can be legally settled… it is the price at which the vast majority of victims will prefer to settle rather than hire a hitman and the propensity to hire a hitman versus accept a settlement payment will depend partly on the size of the customary payment and partly on the psychological outrage of the victims of the particular kind of crime under discussion. Particularly outrageous crimes may have settlement prices that far exceed any “property value” explanation. For example, David Friedman mentions (somewhere in his online writings) that certain crimes that seem to us fairly minor – such as cutting a man’s hair, were actually severely punished in English common law. The explanation is that these kinds of crimes were severe insults to the honor of the victim with significant social consequences, so these victims were highly motivated to retaliate and settlement was very costly. This is another reason I am a detractor to Rothbard’s two-teeth-for-a-tooth theory… I see it as price-fixing which is often too high, but can also be -too low-.

    Anyway, great, thought-provoking article.

    • Marko 01/08/2013 at 01:31 Reply

      Regarding what you bring up in the first paragraph Kinsella addresses this and says basically as much as you have:

      “In this way we can see a requirement of proportionality—or, more properly, of reciprocity, along the lines of the lex talionis, the law of retaliation, of eye-for-an-eye—accompanies any legitimate punishment of an aggressor. “As the injury inflicted, so must be the injury suffered.””

      However, according to Kinsella the practical end result is, correctly in my opinion, nonetheless very similar to the notion of “two teeth for a tooth”: “…the rape of an innocent person (B) is typically much more of an offense than is a similar violation of a criminal. …

      Thus B is entitled to inflict a greater amount of punishment on A than A inflicted on B, if only to more or less equalize the actual level of damage inflicted. Thus, if A permanently damages B’s arm, B may be entitled to damage both of A’s arms, or even all of A’s limbs.”

  2. dobbothegreat 01/08/2013 at 01:09 Reply

    An excellent article Marko which properly takes account of the fact when you’re being aggressed you aren’t in a court room.

    • Marko 01/08/2013 at 01:59 Reply

      Thanks. Albeit I wouldn’t want there for to be the impression least, sufficient force is gung-ho. In many cases it is more favorable for the criminal than importing proportionality into defense would be. If you take proportionality to heart a would-be batterer who is 100 lb lighter than his chosen victim, and his counterpart who is 100 lb heavier than his target, are both guilty of the same attempted crime and may therefore presumably be dispatched off in the same manner.

      Under least, sufficient force, however, it is not permissible to dispatch of the light-weight attacker with the same extreme means that would be needed to defend against the heavy-weight aggressor. As a practical effect least, sufficient force ‘rewards’ criminals for being easy to defend against, and for picking as their targets those who are better able to defend themselves against them.

      But you’re right, when under attack it’d be very strange to have to think “what is proportional to this?” Obviously what anybody would be thinking was “what do I do to defend myself?” The natural rights answer is a reasonable one anything, you have to, but not more than that.

  3. […] article by one “Marco”: “Least, Sufficient Force: Libertarian Theory of Defense,” The Voluntaryist Reader blog (2013). He argues that a victim may use force in self-defense, […]

  4. Stephan Kinsella 08/02/2022 at 20:31 Reply

    If you are still monitoring this thought-provoking post I have a question for you. Why is there a limitation of “least, sufficient force” on means of self-defense? Where does it come from? It’s easy to see where proportionality in punishment comes from. Why is there a limit for self-defense?

    • Marko 08/03/2022 at 16:00 Reply

      Well, let us ask why is there permission to use force in self-defense at all? Force in self-defense is permitted because it is force that is extorted by the attacker.

      Now, how much force is the attacker extorting from us? Only enough force to thwart him, no more or less.

      The amount of force being extorted is still “proportional,” but it is not proportional to what the attacker planned for the target. Instead it is proportional to what it takes to defend from him.

      It is the aggressor who creates the situation where the target’s course of action is narrowed down to just two options. To either A) accept the violation of its rights, or else B) to defend itself with force.

      A is not something that the aggressor has the right to ask. We are so adamant that rights are inviolable that we propose to punish even those who merely attempt to violate them or threaten to do so. So then since the attacker has no right to demand that the target opts for A and submits to the violation, he also has no right to complain when the target chooses B instead.

      Now, should we later apprehend the aggressor, we will judge what punishment to apply based on what violations he had intended, threatened or carried out. But what violations A he intended has nothing to do with the level of force that the target having opted for B may bring to bear in defense.

      Since demanding submission to even the smallest violation is already fully beyond the pale of permissible, the level of force that can be brought to bear in defense can not be linked to what aggression the attacker intends. It is linked only to how much force is needed for the defense to succeed.

      We would say that proportional punishment is authorized by the aggressor himself. Having intended similar for the victim he doesn’t have a leg to stand on when something alike is done to him. But in initiating the aggression the aggressor also authorizes another kind of force against himself -– the force in self-defense.

      Like the permission to carry out proportional punishment, the authorization to engage in violent defense comes from the aggressor, but it is likewise not an authorization without a boundary. The authorization from the would-be violator is governed by the persistence and the power of his attack which determine what extremes are required to check him.

      In the real world it so happens that aggressors who intend to conquer and pillage are also ferocious and the aggressors who intend merely to trespass are relatively more puny and meek. It is because of this that experiencing defense as being governed by “proportionality” seems to work just fine most of the time. But this is a mere coincidence. It is a general pattern as observed often in the real world, not a thought-out principle.

      Theoretically there could be powerful and determined trespassers and skittish conquerors at which point allowing extreme violence in defense (not punishment) against the latter and only the mildest force against the former would instantly strike us as arbitrary (and unlivable).

      You can be attacked by a person who sincerely intends to strangle you to death with its bare hands and another who merely intends to hobble you. Yet if the former is an 80-pound woman and the latter is a 240-pound martial artist, which of the two has authorized the use of greater force in defense against them?

      If we go down the path of linking the permissible level of force in defense to the severity of the aggression we enter the uncomfortable territory where maximum force in defense is perhaps permitted only where homicide is intended, but only a lesser intensity against rape, and still lesser against a beating.

      In such a case we would be de facto saying that rights are not inviolable. That they are inviolable only to the extent that they can be successfully defended with the use of force not far greater than the aggression intended.

      This can be a coherent position for the kind of a utilitarian that sees the ultimate goal as minimal combined violence in the world and refuses to weigh violence in aggression and in defense separately. But for a libertarian to say that in a situation where the aggressor of his own volition opts to force the target into having to choose between x) submitting to a violation, y) attempting proportional defense that will be insufficient and z) opting for an extreme form of defense against the aggressor that will be barely successful, that the last is impermissible is to cease being a libertarian.

      As human beings we can view injury to the aggressor as a tragedy. As pacifists we can even view the greater injury to the aggressor as the greater tragedy than would be the lesser injury to the target if the target opted to turn the other cheek. However we can not set up a legal system that limits defensive force to less than the least sufficient force – and we can not go after targets of aggression who did not exceed such a threshold (no matter how “disproportionate”). To do otherwise would be to impose a positive obligation on people to relinquish rights in certain conditions for the sake of our proportionality aesthetics.

      A pacifist could say it is laudable to not give into the aggressor’s extortion and refuse violence even after non-violence has failed. But as libertarians the thing we care about is who set up this situation where either one tragedy or the other has to happen. The victim did not choose to be part of the sick experiment. It was the aggressor who chose to shove the target into the terrible dilemma. So as libertarians we can not condemn the involuntary subject of the experiment regardless of how violent and “disproportionate” his breaking free of its clutches was – except if there existed a lesser level of force that would have also sufficed for the same.

      Parts of this might sound scandalous and evoke shock and disgust in a certain kind of reader. But the origin of this revulsion must be recognized. The cause does not lie in the understanding of libertarian principles, but in the innate bias toward meekness that is to some extent in all of us. It is entirely possible that the meek who do not reach for force in every situation they would be justified to do so are more virtuous. It is also possible that living among such people is more pleasant and productive. Having a level of innate resistance against performance of extreme violence even when it is experienced as defensive perhaps made it easier for us to build relationships and cooperatives – but it does not make us into inherent or instant great legal minds. Where theory is concerned the only question that matters is:

      Do you think that the would-be aggressor who was *only barely defended against* can conceivably have a leg to stand on in bringing charges against his intended victim on the grounds that the injuries that were inflicted on him in the course of the (barely successfull) defense against him were greatly disproportionate to the considerably smaller injuries he had planned for the target?

      If you buy proportionality in defense you have to say yes. Rothbard purports to support proportionality in defense but I do not think he would have been willing to answer the above in the affirmative.


      Again, I wouldn’t think of it as where the limit comes from, but where the part before the limit comes from.

      Where does the legitimacy of force in self-defense comes from? It comes from it being defensive. So naturally the part of the force that is in excess of what is needed for a successful defense (eg force that continues to be administered after the threat has been repelled) is no longer defensive and is no longer legitimized by needs of self-defense. (Albeit it may still be legitimate as punishment.)

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